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Mark Entrekin: Hello, everyone welcome again to the creating solutions, one reality at a time. Podcast we are here for achieving unity, that's achieving unity as we harness the power
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Mark Entrekin: of encouraging, inspiring, and including others personally
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Mark Entrekin: as well as professionally.
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Mark Entrekin: This is picture of my website on the screen.
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Mark Entrekin: We'll go to that at any time.
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Mark Entrekin: But again, it's our achieving unity unity weekly. Podcast it is every Thursday in 2024
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Mark Entrekin: that we meet. If it's not a Us. Holiday, and it says Holiday, which is like Thanksgiving
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Mark Entrekin: or Christmas any of those holidays. We will not have meetings on those days or podcasts, because of holidays, but also, as of January 1, st 2025. We are going to move to Wednesdays. My course on achieving unity will be coming in on that Thursday, so hope you'll take the course to 7 week. Course, 90 min per week would love to have you as a attendee, as a member of that class. But we are from one Pm. Pacific time, 4 pm. Eastern time each week.
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Mark Entrekin: So what is it? You see my logo in the top right corner from reality focus dynamics to the success focused solutions that we create. Contact me today on
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Mark Entrekin: using agile and lean outside of software.
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Mark Entrekin: lot of people that understand those words may be more on the engineering side, maybe on the computer software side information technology.
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Mark Entrekin: But the philosophy can be used in every discipline.
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Mark Entrekin: every vertical, including our homes.
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Mark Entrekin: Agile is the ability to create and respond to change, enabling success in an uncertain and possibly turbulent environment by emphasizing adaptability through better collaboration and communication.
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Mark Entrekin: Lean is a methodology focused on maximizing value by minimizing waste and optimizing our processes through continuous improvement.
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Mark Entrekin: effectiveness, and efficiency
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Mark Entrekin: connect with me. And I'll show you how to break all products and services down from the most complex projects, the basic steps of training
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Mark Entrekin: our teenagers. Have you ever told your teenager to clean their room.
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Mark Entrekin: What do they do? They get some clothes, toss it in the closet, toss it somewhere else. I'm a room clean.
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Mark Entrekin: They didn't quite get the message. Neither did I when I was a teenager.
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Mark Entrekin: Let me show you how you can transform. Changing into improving. Changing is short term. Improving is long term we can turn developing into delivery.
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Mark Entrekin: We can turn that software that we hear about into solutions. One of my speeches with bid rid Gid write it down, break it down, review its dependencies.
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Mark Entrekin: get it done. That's where we need to be, and we can do that in every facet of our lives.
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Mark Entrekin: shaving unity, as I mentioned, through the power as we harness the power of encouraging, inspiring, and including others.
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Mark Entrekin: Encouragement can be the strongest power known around the world today, and that power is in the center of empowerment, empowering others. We do that through that encouraging, inspiring, and including others, because of our education and our learning.
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Mark Entrekin: and we can do that with each other.
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Mark Entrekin: We will be united by achieving unity.
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Mark Entrekin: We will become a successful team, inspiring one another to achieve every goal again by working together.
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Mark Entrekin: because that together we will conquer every challenge to inclusion.
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Mark Entrekin: accelerate each victory
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Mark Entrekin: personally and professionally. This is not just for business. This is also in our homes.
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Mark Entrekin: Are you?
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Mark Entrekin: Someone, you know, may be facing relationship challenges or difficulties with parenting time as a divorced or divorcing parent.
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Mark Entrekin: I can help you transform frustration into understanding with
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Mark Entrekin: what the
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Mark Entrekin: frustration.
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Mark Entrekin: demonstrating that anger holds no value.
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Mark Entrekin: Remember, anger is just actions not gaining effective results.
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Mark Entrekin: A NGER. Actions not gaining effective results
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Mark Entrekin: from personal relationships to prenuptial agreements
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Mark Entrekin: and nuptials not required. A lot of people are not getting married anymore, but the relationship. Agreements are important to know before we build that relationship.
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Mark Entrekin: life happens, and we can learn to embrace and enjoy every moment of it.
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Mark Entrekin: Excuse me
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Mark Entrekin: again. You see my title again. Here the QR codes you're available. You have your phone ready. Pick either one of those once our website at home and 1 1 on the rights of contact page feel free to contact me at any time through email.
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Mark Entrekin: Our upcoming guest agape. Garcia will be here next week for the national domestic violence. Awareness.
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Mark Entrekin: We have 2 people talking with me right now in Hispanic awareness
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Mark Entrekin: last Thursday of the month, which will be Halloween will be on the LGBT history, where it's going, what it's doing and how we're helping it grow
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Mark Entrekin: the way it must grow.
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Mark Entrekin: Maury will be coming. Talk to us on Veterans Day talking to us about Copd.
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Mark Entrekin: Tara Woodley talked about the international day for the elimination of violence against women.
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Mark Entrekin: Now we need to eliminate all violence.
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Mark Entrekin: We need to start where it's hitting us the worst. And right now that's the violence against women. We need to work together mothers and fathers, men and women, male and female. We've got to end violence
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Mark Entrekin: next be on astral playday with Dad
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Mark Entrekin: can't begin our fathers.
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Mark Entrekin: I used to be a member of the fathers for equal rights ffer in Denver
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Mark Entrekin: we need to work with both parents also have the best parent is bothparents.com.
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Mark Entrekin: We need to work together to end anger. There is no value.
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Mark Entrekin: Why do we do it?
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Mark Entrekin: Let's end it. Starting today.
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Mark Entrekin: Well, now, here is my honor of the day. I was just chatting.
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Mark Entrekin: But Dr. Dave.
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Mark Entrekin: our guest today, is Dr. David Clark.
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Mark Entrekin: president of the Psychophysiologic Disorders Association, Ppda. It's a 501 c. 3 nonprofit dedicated to ending the chronic pain epidemic. Now they may be doing some name changes. He'll talk to us about that shortly.
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Mark Entrekin: but Dr. Clark holds an MD. From the University of Connecticut School of Medicine.
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Mark Entrekin: and is board certified in internal medicine and gastroentology.
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Mark Entrekin: His organization's mission is to advance the awareness, diagnosis and treatment of stress-related and brain-generated medical conditions.
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Mark Entrekin: You can learn [email protected]. Now, as we get started in just a second, I'm going to turn the screen over.
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Mark Entrekin: But Dave's 1st question is going to tell us, Dr. Dave, can you tell us why organizations like the Ppr
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Mark Entrekin: Ppda need to exist?
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Dr. David Clarke: Yeah, absolutely mark and great to be with you. And thank you for having me on your program.
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Dr. David Clarke: what we are focused on is actually the biggest blind spot in healthcare.
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Dr. David Clarke: It turns out that you know most people assume that. And and this is the training of most healthcare professionals
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Dr. David Clarke: that if you've got pain or illness, most people assume that it must be coming from injury or disease. But it turns out there's a whole other category that can cause pain or illness anywhere in the body.
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Dr. David Clarke: and that is brain generated symptoms, symptoms that originate in the brain and can be created anywhere in the body, even when there's no physical abnormality present. The symptoms are every bit as real as those caused by organ disease or structural damage.
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Dr. David Clarke: They can go on for years or decades they can happen to anybody. The traditional diagnostic approach doesn't work, because either there's no structural problem to find, or if you do find an abnormality. It's not causing the symptoms.
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Dr. David Clarke: and this wouldn't be such a big deal if it was rare. But it turns out that 2 out of every 5 people who go to the doctor. This is what they have, and it's 1 out of every 5 people in the adult population. So we're talking about 50 million people in the United States alone.
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Dr. David Clarke: And to finally get away from this bummer of information, we've got effective treatment available for this. We can alleviate this. One of my patients.
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Dr. David Clarke: just to cite one example, was hospitalized at a prestigious university 60 times in 15 years for attack.
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Mark Entrekin: Excellent.
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Dr. David Clarke: Severe dizziness and vomiting, and they had no diagnosis. A dozen specialists looked at her. She had every test you can think of. A psychiatrist checked her out and said she was fine.
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Dr. David Clarke: but it was all linked to stress in her life, and by bringing that into the open she was cured in less than a 1 h. Conversation.
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Mark Entrekin: That's amazing, Dr. Dave. I
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Mark Entrekin: what amazes me most is
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Mark Entrekin: we're talking to, I think, as you mentioned a well with well-known doctors.
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Mark Entrekin: Well, no facilities.
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Mark Entrekin: How is that information not being shared.
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Dr. David Clarke: Yeah, it's starting to be. I mean, I've been teaching at the medical school where I'm based in Portland, Oregon, for several years now. There are medical schools in Europe where I have taught that are teaching this information. I've been teaching in graduate schools for psychologists for over a decade. Now, so the word is finally beginning to get out. And what's really going to accelerate it
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Dr. David Clarke: is that in the last, mostly 3 years we have had some Gold Standard Science, published across North America what we call randomized controlled trials, which are, you know, the highest level of scientific information
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Dr. David Clarke: that have shown that this new pain, relief, psychotherapy, that uncovers the stresses in people's lives, brings them out into the open and enables people to recover from those. And that brings the pain and illness down.
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Dr. David Clarke: This is starting to get people's attention. It's been in the Washington Post la Times, Cbs. News, and more and more professional educational institutions are paying attention to it. So I'm very happy with the way things are going.
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Mark Entrekin: Thank you for what you're doing, just as we even mentioned earlier that information that we know and we live with for so long. And we accept.
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Mark Entrekin: We don't think about looking elsewhere, and that
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Mark Entrekin: I appreciate you. I know so little about what you do.
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Mark Entrekin: but I do know about that process of us doing the same thing over and over, and it becomes a comfort level.
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Mark Entrekin: and there could be a better way. But we don't see it.
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Mark Entrekin: I appreciate what you're doing.
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Dr. David Clarke: Well, once you do see it, you can't unsee it. And the doctors that I have taught how to do this approach. They absolutely love it, because all of a sudden 40% of the people who are coming to them for help with their pain or illness are getting better. Instead of causing frustration for themselves and for the doctors.
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Dr. David Clarke: We're talking about bodily symptoms literally from head to toe. It can be migraines, dizziness ringing in the ears, visual disturbances, pseudo seizures, trouble, swallowing fibromyalgia, irritable bowel, bladder, spasms, pelvic pain, joint pain, pain in the.
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Mark Entrekin: Wow!
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Dr. David Clarke: Back is a big one. And all of these things, you know, they won't necessarily get
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Dr. David Clarke: relief in one conversation, as I did with the the patient with the dizziness. But even people that take longer to get better, they at least know they're on the right pathway to healing.
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Mark Entrekin: Oh, yes, and that would make
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Mark Entrekin: I think it make everyone feel better from the start. But let me, if you don't mind, Dr. Dave. I'd like to kind of change direction just a little bit.
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Mark Entrekin: What sparked your interest in psychophysiologic disorders and the chronic pain, epidemic.
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Dr. David Clarke: Yeah, that's a great question. I was, you know, heading toward being a perfectly ordinary gastrointestinal specialist.
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Dr. David Clarke: I was getting the most traditional training that you possibly could for the 1st 7 years, you know it takes a long time to learn to be a doctor.
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Mark Entrekin: Good.
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Dr. David Clarke: And nobody mentioned any of this, and I was doing well. I mean, I was successful in my training years. I got an award for excellence in medical school. I got into my Dream Hospital Residency program. I was passing all my board examinations with high scores, so the last thing I expected
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Dr. David Clarke: was to run into a patient that I didn't know the 1st thing about diagnosing or treating, and this was a woman in her late thirties who was sent to us from another university, where they couldn't figure out what was wrong to Ucla, where I was in training.
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Dr. David Clarke: and she was averaging one bowel movement per month, despite.
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Mark Entrekin: Wow!
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Dr. David Clarke: Taking 4 different laxatives at double the recommended doses. And they weren't working.
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Dr. David Clarke: And we did some specialized testing on her. And
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Dr. David Clarke: we were my department chair, and I were sure that this test was going to show the problem
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Dr. David Clarke: that was normal, too completely left us baffled, and I was doing her exit interview and talking to her about stress. And.
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Dr. David Clarke: you know, just out of desperation, got into a pretty wide, ranging discussion, and she began to tell me that she had been severely abused as a girl.
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Dr. David Clarke: and I had never heard that from a patient before about their childhood abuse history. I didn't know what to do with it. I didn't know if it could possibly be relevant to her condition, but it turns out that
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Dr. David Clarke: a majority of my patients, with these unexplained pain and illness conditions, it can be traced back to some kind of adversity when they were children, and that was absolutely the case with this patient. I didn't know what to do with it. I had 0 training in this, but there was a psychiatrist at Ucla that
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Dr. David Clarke: was knowledgeable in this field, and much to my shock, she cured this patient with less than 3 months of weekly counseling sessions.
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Dr. David Clarke: I had no idea that such a thing was.
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Mark Entrekin: Amazing.
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Dr. David Clarke: Yeah, it was amazing. That was the elevator ride that changed my career. I'm riding up in the elevator with Dr. Kaplan, the psychiatrist, and I just to make conversation. I said, what happened to that patient I sent to you. And she said, Well, I'm not seeing her anymore. And I thought. Well, of course not. You know you're not going to be able to cure somebody like that.
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Dr. David Clarke: And she said, she's fine. She's, you know, doesn't need laxatives anymore. Her bowels are moving normally, and I'm going. What?
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Dr. David Clarke: But you know, I felt like, if I'm going to be a complete doctor, I got to know at least something about this. So I had Dr. Kaplan
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Dr. David Clarke: teach me her framework for how she thought about this thinking, okay, you know, a couple patients a year this might come in handy. It was 5 or 6 patients a week.
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Dr. David Clarke: Once I started looking for it.
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Dr. David Clarke: For
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Dr. David Clarke: 2 or 3 decades of my practice over 7,000 people that I have interviewed along these lines since then, you know, 40 years ago, and the rewards of doing this, I mean to see people who were at their wits end get better, you know. Sometimes, in a matter of weeks or months one of my patients had been ill
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Dr. David Clarke: with abdominal pains more often than not for 55 years.
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Dr. David Clarke: Volume 3 of his paper chart was 3 inches thick.
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Dr. David Clarke: He was, you know. He didn't think I was going to be able to do anything for him, but a month later he was cured.
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Mark Entrekin: That is amazing. Now that brings me to think I have a close friend
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Mark Entrekin: that had problems. And we were all just about to think that.
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Mark Entrekin: but he's about to pass away, and
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Mark Entrekin: they put they put him on iron pills. I believe it was.
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Mark Entrekin: and got better, but it was still just a long period of time weeks.
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Mark Entrekin: and today's fine.
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Mark Entrekin: but we have no idea, still goes to the doctor, you know, a couple of times a month.
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Mark Entrekin: but have not learned anything about what the
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Mark Entrekin: problem
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Mark Entrekin: was.
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Dr. David Clarke: Well, if it was, if it was cured with iron pills, then
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Dr. David Clarke: that's a biological problem with my patients. You might find something if you look hard enough, but then you do the treatment for whatever it is that you found, and it doesn't help, or that problem improves, but something else develops. You know, these symptoms can move around in some people, or there can be multiple symptoms. Many of my patients have
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Dr. David Clarke: more than one symptom at a time. The key is to go looking for sources of stress, and very often it's treatment of the person as a child in a way that you would never want for a child of your own, and that can be almost anything. But these can have long term impacts. It can affect a person's self-esteem. It can cause them to be
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Dr. David Clarke: so focused on the needs of other people in their world that they don't know how to put themselves on the list of people they take care of. They can be very detail oriented or even perfectionist. They're often highly self-critical. They often can get triggered by people or situations in their present day life that connect in some way to their childhood experience, and are therefore highly stressful for them.
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Dr. David Clarke: So lots of different stresses that can crop up, but when we uncover them, when we bring them out into the open where we can talk about them, we can almost always intervene successfully, bring the stress level down, and then people's symptoms begin to improve.
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Dr. David Clarke: and sometimes dramatically.
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Mark Entrekin: That's awesome to hear, I mean, and that's kind of what I'm talking about with this close friend.
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Mark Entrekin: I don't know like you mentioned. Did the iron injections weekly, and almost like an infusion.
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Mark Entrekin: had to go to the hospital and be on the AV. And
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Mark Entrekin: he got better.
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Mark Entrekin: But his iron now is not much different as far as when he goes to the doctor
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Mark Entrekin: the measurements. So
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Mark Entrekin: I I guess I'm just still confused. It was he cured or
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Mark Entrekin: did psychologically.
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Dr. David Clarke: Yeah, I would.
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Mark Entrekin: Your brother.
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Dr. David Clarke: Probably
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Mark Entrekin: Course.
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Dr. David Clarke: See the medical records on somebody like that, I mean one of my patients, who was somewhat similar, had celiac, which involves harm to the lining of your intestine because of a compound that's in wheat, gluten, and certain other grains
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Dr. David Clarke: and causes inflammation in the lining of your bowel, which then doesn't absorb nutrients very well, and one of those nutrients can be iron, and people can get low iron related anemia from that. So that's a pure speculation about this, but you can get
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Dr. David Clarke: symptoms and pain that's every bit as severe as that caused by these organ diseases or structural damage purely from the brain, creating symptoms in the body. It's it's astounding the power of the brain to do this. I mean, I told you about the person who was had stomach pains for 55 years. Another one of my.
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Mark Entrekin: 5 years.
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Dr. David Clarke: Another one of my patients I was asked to see on. I was a teenager, had been in the hospital for 70 days when I was 1st asked to see them.
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Dr. David Clarke: and they were getting morphine around the clock in in high doses
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Dr. David Clarke: for abdominal pain that was unexplained. 6 other gastrointestinal specialists had already seen this patient over the previous 18 months
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Dr. David Clarke: with no diagnosis.
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Dr. David Clarke: And this was 100% due to stress. Because when I uncovered what was going on, and was able to intervene successfully. The patient started reducing the opioid dosages, and was able to leave the hospital in a week and 30 days after we met I was able to stop all of the pain medication completely.
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Mark Entrekin: That's amazing.
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Mark Entrekin: That is, again.
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Mark Entrekin: I know you're on the show. I'm I'm pinpointing on you. But thank you, because you are opening up
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Mark Entrekin: as I talk about achieving unity through the power of encouraging, inspiring, including others. What you're doing is opening up so much in an industry that in a vertical, the medical industry
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Mark Entrekin: that for us the lay people are saying, well.
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Mark Entrekin: you should have already done that. You should have already explored that. And
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Mark Entrekin: but it's like you're opening up another door to this very complex
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Mark Entrekin: system that we do have the brain, the heart to it.
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Mark Entrekin: our blood system. It's amazing. But let me ask you something else, because you brought a couple of times
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Mark Entrekin: things that have happened.
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Mark Entrekin: Trauma from our childhood.
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Mark Entrekin: Well, what about trauma? Even in our adulthood.
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Dr. David Clarke: Yes, absolutely. And those are things that I look for as well. People can have the disease depression, for example, and not fully recognize that they have it, they can have an anxiety disorder, and not fully recognize that they have it. It can manifest more in the body than it does in mental health symptoms in many cases. So we have to be alert to that.
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Dr. David Clarke: But you're absolutely right about the trauma, a colleague of mine. We just had a big conference in Colorado, and and he's from Tucson. And he came to the conference, and a year or so ago he told me a story about a patient who had been going from doctor to doctor, trying to
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Dr. David Clarke: get relief for symptoms that had been going on for close to a year, and he was the one because he knows this approach. He was the one who found out that right before her symptoms began she had been a hostage during the robbery of a store, and she spent 40 or 50 min with a handgun pointed at her neck.
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Mark Entrekin: How.
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Dr. David Clarke: Obviously a huge trauma, and this had taken place right before the onset of her symptoms, so there was no question after they looked for biomedical and physical causes for her symptoms, and didn't find anything. There was little doubt that it was this trauma
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Dr. David Clarke: that led to the symptoms. But if you don't know to look for that. And you know, when I was in training, they didn't teach us to look for these things. The assumption about patients like this is that they're neurotic.
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Dr. David Clarke: or they can't handle their own stress, or that they're imagining this, or it's all in their head, or that there's nothing we can do for them, and none of that is true. I mean, this is something that can happen to anybody. I don't care how mentally strong you are. If you've got enough stress going on for a long enough period of time, you can get these physical symptoms. It's a biological fact.
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Mark Entrekin: We can hear this. You know, we just have to let it go. Well, that sounds good.
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Mark Entrekin: but
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Mark Entrekin: it's not that easy. And going to a professional like yourself
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Mark Entrekin: can help people
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Mark Entrekin: truly let things go
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Mark Entrekin: your services, and the people you talk to, the person that got you into this
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Mark Entrekin: can truly take you to that next level.
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Dr. David Clarke: Yes, and you know, a good place for your viewers to start actually is on the website and chronicpain.org. We have a
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Dr. David Clarke: 12 item, self assessment quiz. There takes less than 3 min to go through it. If people are wondering if they might have this themselves, and each question has a very short explanation with it, so that you can understand why we're asking the question and what the result means.
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Dr. David Clarke: and we've set it up in a way that the more of these 12 questions to which you answer yes, the more likely it is that your symptoms are coming from this brain to body mechanism.
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Mark Entrekin: Yes, it is. That's it's it's amazing it's
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Mark Entrekin: I, I can't keep up with that I'm, just so glad that you are.
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Mark Entrekin: So it it is. It's amazing. But that brought up another point. As you were talking.
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Mark Entrekin: What are some of the misconceptions about chronic pain.
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Mark Entrekin: particularly when it's it's relating to stress.
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Mark Entrekin: Yeah, what are what are some of the misconceptions that
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Mark Entrekin: maybe you run into or encounter a we that for me.
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Mark Entrekin: what are some misconceptions.
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Dr. David Clarke: Well, the biggest misconception is that it's somehow not real. But you know all pain is real, and all pain is actually generated in the brain. If you, you know, burn your finger on the stove.
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Dr. David Clarke: it's your brain that is deciding that the damage signals it's getting from your thumb need to be interpreted as painful, so that you're going to be careful of your thumb. You're going to take care of it. That's what the pain is all about. It's a signal that a part of your body is in danger and needs to be cared for.
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Dr. David Clarke: There's no such thing as imaginary pain. If you're having pain. It's real, and it's coming from a real source. And we need to track that down, whether it's a hot stove or whether it's a long-term stress burden that you've been carrying sometimes for years. My personal record patient
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Dr. David Clarke: was 87 years old.
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Dr. David Clarke: and she had been experiencing abdominal pains since the age of 8.
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Dr. David Clarke: So you know, if you do the math a total of 79 years of abdominal pain, and she was a nurse. So she had, you know, very good access to healthcare she got, you know, all the diagnostic tests you're supposed to have in that situation
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Dr. David Clarke: didn't show a darn thing. But she had been through a trauma when she was 8, and
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Dr. David Clarke: we talked about the trauma. We talked about the burden of guilt that she was carrying. From that we did some work to help her alleviate that guilt, that she didn't even recognize how
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Dr. David Clarke: the the magnitude of this guilt that she was carrying, and once she did that she got better.
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Dr. David Clarke: One last misconception is that if the doctor does find something wrong it must be responsible for your pain, and that's actually not true, either. It can be that. It's just what we call an incidental finding. You know. There's an abnormality there, and there's a pain there, but the 2 are not connected.
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Dr. David Clarke: and this happens most often in the spine, because it turns out they've actually done studies where they've X-rayed or done Mris of the spine in people who feel fine people with no pain at all. Their backs are perfectly okay as far as they're concerned.
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Dr. David Clarke: and you do the magnetic resonance imaging, or you do the X-ray. And lo and behold, you find abnormalities in people who feel fine, and the older people are the more abnormalities and the more serious abnormalities you find once again people who feel fine. So when somebody develops stress related back pain
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Dr. David Clarke: and they go into the doctor and they get the imaging study, the X-ray or the MRI, and the doctor finds, oh, you've got this disc issue, or you've got this vertebral bone issue. Well, very often those are the same
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Dr. David Clarke: abnormalities that are found in people who feel fine, so why would they be causing pain in one person and not pain in somebody else, and very often the reason is that the one, the person with the pain is also the person with the stress, and they.
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Mark Entrekin: Wow!
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Dr. David Clarke: They did a study recently of
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Dr. David Clarke: 222 people who were coming to a clinic for their back pain, and it turned out when they did. You know very careful evaluations both of the spine and of their stress levels and of their symptoms.
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Dr. David Clarke: They found that 88% of them. It was not the spine.
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Mark Entrekin: 88.
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Dr. David Clarke: 80%, and
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Dr. David Clarke: this
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Dr. David Clarke: absolutely dovetails with the fact that when surgeons operate on the spine, or they or do injections of the spine to alleviate pain.
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Dr. David Clarke: The success rate is about 25%.
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Dr. David Clarke: And that's why? Because
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Dr. David Clarke: about 12% of the time.
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Dr. David Clarke: there is an abnormality in the spine, causing pain that will get better with a surgical or injection intervention.
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Dr. David Clarke: And then there's another 12% that get better because of the placebo effect. And then the other 75% who have had an injection or an operation.
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Dr. David Clarke: They're not getting better because the real problem is.
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Dr. David Clarke: the brain is generating their pain.
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Mark Entrekin: It's still mental, interesting. Okay. Now I
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Mark Entrekin: I just just as you're talking just kind of made me think. And
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Mark Entrekin: I had a car accident. When I was 18 years old I just got out of high school, went off to college. I was riding with a friend.
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Mark Entrekin: and the front left tire.
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Mark Entrekin: What I'm telling you here is what I was told, but
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Mark Entrekin: front of the pickup truck blue. When it did it
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Mark Entrekin: pulled us into a ditch. We hit the ditch.
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Mark Entrekin: and when it did I went through the windshield. I've got scars on my hand here still scars my hand. 3 huge scars on my head on my chest, on my back.
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Mark Entrekin: From that, and I went to intensive care. They had to fly me 60 miles north in a helicopter which I don't remember
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Mark Entrekin: but I'm sure that had something to do, some some major impact on my spinal cord. And we hear about now. It's a 1 time thing, but it's a pretty pretty dramatic.
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Mark Entrekin: and we hear about football helmets now, and
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Mark Entrekin: how much money and time we're putting into better helmets for the football players and and things like that. But I'm
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Mark Entrekin: one of those people that
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Mark Entrekin: I don't have any problems that I know of.
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Mark Entrekin: But what
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Mark Entrekin: is this? Something I.
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Mark Entrekin: Now I've been to a chiropractor. I've had
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Mark Entrekin: X-ray since then. But is that something that
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Mark Entrekin: not just me, but people that have accidents, or something like that
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Mark Entrekin: should they be tested, should it be looked at?
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Dr. David Clarke: No, what we're talking about here is that most acute injuries to the body will heal in, you know, roughly 6 weeks, so that
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Dr. David Clarke: the spine goes back to being in good shape and if you've got pain
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Dr. David Clarke: in order to do a thorough evaluation of somebody, it's important to check them out for brain generated pain or illness by assessing for stress and doing what I call a stress evaluation, to make sure that that isn't at least a contributing factor. So
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Dr. David Clarke: when somebody's got pain in the spine or or anywhere else, if there's not an obvious structural cause, physical cause, biomedical cause
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Dr. David Clarke: in order to be thorough. In order to be complete in the medical evaluation, we need to find out, you know. Are you under any stress in your life at the moment? Is there a linkage in timing between when your symptoms began and when there was a big stress in your life?
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Dr. David Clarke: If there's fluctuation in symptoms do they fluctuate in relation to stress in your life? We need to check out for depression, anxiety, or trauma, as we've mentioned. That's part of the stress evaluation, too.
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Dr. David Clarke: And then the biggest surprise to me in my training was, we need to check you out for were you under stress as a kid? Did you experience things that you would never want for a child of your own, or that would make you sad or angry if you saw them happening to a child you care about. And because those can have, you know, we can't go back and change those. But they can have long term impacts that we can address
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Dr. David Clarke: affect personalities in stressful ways. They can cause unrecognized emotions, especially anger or fear that can be expressed in your body, that you may not be consciously aware of, and they can cause triggers where, let's say, like my patient who was at the prestigious university 60 times
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Dr. David Clarke: her episodes were all triggered by interactions with her abusive mother, even as a 50.
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Mark Entrekin: Yeah, one.
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Dr. David Clarke: 50 year old woman whose mother was in her seventies. The negative impact of that
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Dr. David Clarke: patient's mom was so bad that it was making her physically ill, but she couldn't see it, you know. She had been burying her emotions and her stress around her relationship with her mom so thoroughly since the age of 3 or 4 that she had no conscious awareness of what her mom was having, was impacting her with.
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Mark Entrekin: That's amazing, but it fits in. And that's 1 of those things.
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Mark Entrekin: Dr. Davis. As you talk about this.
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Mark Entrekin: it all makes sense, and
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Mark Entrekin: the medical industry is so technical, and there's so much to our DNA and our bodies, and how our mind works the neuro.
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Mark Entrekin: But yet when you start talking about some of these
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Mark Entrekin: issues with your I think you said 7,000 people
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Mark Entrekin: that you have seen, and to be able to bring
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Mark Entrekin: all of that knowledge together, and then you talk to a lay person such as myself or any of the audience that's listening.
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Mark Entrekin: What you're talking about just seems to make sense. And well, why didn't we see it sooner.
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Dr. David Clarke: Well, there have been a few doctors who have seen it over the years, you know, even going back to Roman days. There was a doctor named Galen, who observed this kind of phenomenon in his patients, and there have been a number of others over the centuries. But we can go all the way back to an Egyptian papyrus of 1,800 BC.
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Dr. David Clarke: Where these symptoms were 1st described, and the treatment that they recommend that, of course, was not particularly good back in those days. But what's embarrassing is that the treatment really hasn't improved for most people, even to this day. We finally in 2024. We've got several
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Dr. David Clarke: gold standard research studies, as I mentioned earlier, from across North America, Halifax, Harvard, Detroit, Boulder, Colorado, was a great one. The Los Angeles, Va. Has done some excellent work, all of them showing that this new form of pain relief, psychotherapy that I call it that I've been using since the 19 eighties. Just how effective it is. The boulder back pain study was a great one
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Dr. David Clarke: because it had 2 control groups. They did the pain relief psychotherapy with 50 people who had had back pain for an average of 10 years, and the other 2 groups, one got an injection, and the 3rd group just got their usual care that they'd always been getting the pain scores, for all of them were about 4 out of 10, which is, you know, pretty significant pain, especially if you've had it for 10 years.
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Dr. David Clarke: The pain, relief, psychotherapy group. In one month the pain scores dropped from 4 to one.
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Dr. David Clarke: Wow! And 2 thirds of them. It was either a 1 or a 0. So just, you know, after 10 years it drops like a stone like that, and then they? Just to be sure, they followed them for an additional 11 months, and the pain scores stayed the same, and the other 2 groups, even the one that got the big injection into the spine, which is a powerful placebo.
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Dr. David Clarke: Those those groups did not improve.
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Dr. David Clarke: It was only the psychotherapy group that got the significant benefit, and you know the magnitude of the benefit was something that had never been seen before from psychological treatment of chronic pain. It was just dramatically effective. And now those results have been found by other researchers completely independent from the ones in Colorado, and these are the Harvard and
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Dr. David Clarke: Ucla and the University in Halifax, Nova Scotia, and in Detroit as well. So all of these are confirming that when you take this approach you can alleviate chronic pain and illness far better than we've ever been able to do before.
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Mark Entrekin: Heard me say, Wow! Several times.
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Dr. David Clarke: I'm saying, wow! When I 1st saw those results I was going. Oh, my God! There's even another piece to it, mark!
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Dr. David Clarke: They scanned the brains of people who were in chronic pain before and after they got the psychotherapy and their brains anatomically changed on the scans. The psychotherapy was actually
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Dr. David Clarke: causing the circuits in the brain that were responsible for this very real pain to physically change again just by talking to people in the right way, just by uncovering these highly stressful issues in people's lives that had not been addressed in the past.
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Mark Entrekin: One of the questions is because my next question and you're touching on it because you're touching a lot of things. But
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Mark Entrekin: and I think you somewhat answered this, but to be a little more direct, what do you find to be the most effective treatments for chronic pain that's linked to stress and mental health issues.
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Mark Entrekin: Is that something you can talk about or.
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Dr. David Clarke: We, you know, for the simplest ones. We definitely want to uncover anything that's going on in your life right now. One of my patients. He only got his pain when he was driving to work
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Dr. David Clarke: when he was driving home from work. He was fine, also fine on the weekends when he was not on the job.
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Dr. David Clarke: and that made it pretty obvious that something stressful must be going on in his workplace. And sure enough, there was. We don't need to go into all the details, but by helping him deal with that more successfully. Stress level came down. Symptoms went away. Another patient, unfortunately, was suffering domestic violence. The person she was living with was beating her up 2 or 3 times a week
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Dr. David Clarke: this had been going on, and you, you know, I know you've got some guests coming up in your show in the very near future on this topic.
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Dr. David Clarke: and it can lead to no surprise. Stress related physical symptoms.
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Dr. David Clarke: and this woman's pains had been going on for a period of time exactly corresponding to the duration of the violence in her home. So, with the help of a social worker. We got her out of that environment into her own apartment, you know, ended that relationship, and within a couple of weeks all the pain went away. So
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Dr. David Clarke: you know, those are very, very simple. It's a little more complex for people who are suffering the long-term impact of adversity in childhood.
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Dr. David Clarke: I focus on the the personality, traits, perfectionism.
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Dr. David Clarke: lack of taking time for your own joy. You know, not putting yourself on the list of people that you take care of.
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Dr. David Clarke: You know low self-esteem, poor assertiveness, excessive self criticism. If people can see
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Dr. David Clarke: what it was about their childhood environment that led to the development of these traits if they can see what it was they learned from their childhood environment. That isn't true assumptions they made about themselves back then that they're still carrying with them. You know, for example, that it's their job to solve the problems of everybody else in their world that they've been doing since they were kids, because that was the
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Dr. David Clarke: the environment they were in. And kids try to fix things when when they're not happy. And if you learn that to try to fix things even amongst the adults in your household as a young kid, you're going to grow up to be somebody. No surprise that tries to fix other people's problems.
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Dr. David Clarke: and you can end up on a treadmill. You never step off. You can end up
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Dr. David Clarke: feeling like you don't have the right to
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Dr. David Clarke: do some of that same thing for yourself. Put yourself on the list of those you take care of.
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Dr. David Clarke: So those are approaches, the buried emotions, you know. That's probably the the most difficult and subtle of all. You know you.
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Dr. David Clarke: if you've got that in a big way. A psychotherapist who is skilled with those is likely going to need to to come into play. But a lot of my patients what has helped, you know, one single technique I can share that helps a lot
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Dr. David Clarke: is to imagine yourself a butterfly on the wall of your childhood home, and you are watching a kid that you care about. Try to go through everything that you went through as a kid, even just for a week, you know. And again, it's not you living your life. It's you're watching
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Dr. David Clarke: a child of your own or a child that you care about. Try to cope with everything that you had to cope with as a kid. And as people imagine that the emotions start to bubble up, and a lot of times it's emotions that they've never let themselves feel before. And once they're in conscious awareness of those emotions. They can start to talk about them. They can start to write
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Dr. David Clarke: things down about them. They can write in a journal. They can write a letter to the people who mistreated them, not to mail it, just just to write that letter and put all those thoughts and emotions down, and again they keep that to themselves afterwards.
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Dr. David Clarke: and the more they can put this into words, change those emotions from feelings in their bodies into words. The bodies begin to feel better, very powerful technique frequently not the only thing that they need, but it can go a long way, just something as simple as that.
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Mark Entrekin: It's the seed is what I'm hearing you say, Dr. Dave, it's the seed that's planted to help them to grow beyond some of those areas. And I think you heard, I think you heard, as I mentioned at the beginning of the program, I coach a lot of people.
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Mark Entrekin: and when I hear people talk about our childhood issues
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Mark Entrekin: and love you to touch this touch, this a little bit more. I think you talked about it just a few minutes ago. But
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Mark Entrekin: again, we have a lot of people that are always saying
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Mark Entrekin: they're trying to please everyone, and they know it. And
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Mark Entrekin: you try to help them to to stop trying to please everyone, and
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Mark Entrekin: sometimes even in a parent child relationship.
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Mark Entrekin: the child is not given the parent the respect
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Mark Entrekin: the parent, I feel does deserve. I think parents do deserve respect.
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Mark Entrekin: and
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Mark Entrekin: some of that is creating stress for them in the process. So it's not necessarily
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Mark Entrekin: childhood trauma. There's more and more I think, adult trauma that we may be encountering today. What are your thoughts on that.
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Dr. David Clarke: Yeah, we're definitely living in a highly stressful world. And
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Dr. David Clarke: you know, in order to cope with that world, we need the ability to
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Dr. David Clarke: take stock in ourselves and what we're feeling, and be able on a regular basis to have the rest of the world just kind of go away for a little bit and take some time for ourselves.
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Dr. David Clarke: One of my patients and this is a good example
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Dr. David Clarke: was, I saw her for the 1st time in the emergency room early in the morning, where she had been all night long for a sudden attack of abdominal pain.
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Dr. David Clarke: and they had put her through all the tests, and everything was coming back negative. So I'm talking to her about her life, and
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Dr. David Clarke: she was very, very busy. Let's put it that way she worked full time.
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Dr. David Clarke: Her husband worked full time. She was also busy with coaching her daughters in a particular sport. She was coaching other people's kids in that sport. She was driving them to out of state competitions. She was on the Athletic Club Board of directors, you know. It just never stopped.
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Mark Entrekin: Wow, yeah.
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Dr. David Clarke: Now, why was this? Well, it turned out that she had been a champion in this sport as a girl.
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Dr. David Clarke: but in order to achieve that. She had to practice her sport before school, after school and on weekends from the age of 4 onwards. She never really got to be a kid never acquired the the skill and the experience to be able to to just play. Children
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Dr. David Clarke: need to play, and if they don't, they don't learn the skills they need for self care, and consequently as adults, the idea of telling the rest of the world to go away and taking some time for your own joy kind of becomes a foreign concept. And people feel guilty if they do that, you know, if they've got 10 min of free time, they're not thinking about. Okay, I'm gonna
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Dr. David Clarke: flop down in the recliner, grab a beverage, and, you know, do something fun like, read a book I've been wanting to read. They're not doing that they're thinking about. Oh, look! There's dust bunnies in the corner. I need to clean up. There's dishes in the sink. I need to do I need to call my neighbor who needs some support?
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Dr. David Clarke: It's it's frequently nonstop for them. So I'm trying to teach them. And this is another therapeutic technique to, you know, carve out regular space in your life, you know, at least once a week. Try to get a couple of hours where you do something that's got no purpose but your own joy.
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Dr. David Clarke: What we're looking for is the moral equivalent of finger paints for a 4 year old, 4 year old doesn't care how many pictures per hour they produce. You know they don't care about the quality of the work or who sees it. They just know they're having fun, and that turns out to be an essential human skill. We all need that.
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Mark Entrekin: That is so true. Thank you for bringing that forward. That's something that again, as we've talked about some of these things we know. But we don't do them
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Mark Entrekin: like you said that even that letting things go and yes, the neighbors you mentioned might need some help, but
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Mark Entrekin: help myself first, st
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Mark Entrekin: and another example that hopefully we hear a lot
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Mark Entrekin: is the airplane story that when that oxygen mask comes down and you have children with you.
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Mark Entrekin: who you put the mask on first.st
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Mark Entrekin: Well, it's yourself.
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Mark Entrekin: because if you can't take care of yourself, you have no benefit to the children right.
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Dr. David Clarke: That's exactly right. Yeah. You have to be in a good and stable. Place yourself if you're gonna
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Dr. David Clarke: help others to the maximum extent.
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Mark Entrekin: Great, great subject. I don't think you want to be on here for 72 h, but I know I could talk with you.
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Dr. David Clarke: Pull up.
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Mark Entrekin: Longer. That would be.
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Dr. David Clarke: Stressful for me. Mark.
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Mark Entrekin: I like that good humor that would be stressful. Well, we talked just briefly at the beginning. But how is the Ppda helping to educate healthcare professionals. About some of these illnesses related to stress.
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Dr. David Clarke: Yeah, we're actually in the. This is where the name change comes up. We just decided my board of directors and I to change to the name to the Association for Treatment of neuroplastic symptoms and neuroplastic means that nerves which includes your brain have the capacity for change. The plastic word in medical jargon means the ability to change. And we think that's.
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Mark Entrekin: Thank you.
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Dr. David Clarke: A hopeful message. So neuroplastic symptoms are these brain generated conditions, pain or illness not connected to structural damage or organ disease.
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Dr. David Clarke: And that's the mission of the nonprofit is to spread the word about this to both the public and the professionals how to diagnose and treat this condition successfully. People who are suffering from this fibromyalgia long covid. Lots of other conditions
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Dr. David Clarke: can do a lot for themselves. There are science-based books on this now, including my own, which is called they can't find anything wrong, and a textbook for professionals that's written in plain English. So everybody who's interested in the science can read this, and that's called psychophysiologic disorders, a blend of psychology and physiology.
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Dr. David Clarke: We have sponsored 3 documentary films. We had a huge conference in Boulder, Colorado last week
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Dr. David Clarke: 270 people from all over North America and Europe attended that for 2 and a half days of lectures on the latest science and therapeutic techniques. The website has got a membership program. People support us as members and they get
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Dr. David Clarke: a special self treatment course that's designed for them. They get access to monthly zoom. Q. And as just like the one we're doing right now, where people can ask questions of experts live on zoom. And we're we're coming up in 2025 with
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Dr. David Clarke: a new podcast that's going to be educational and therapeutic for people, lots of lots of new developments. And plus, I do you know lots of podcasts, broadcasts, print journalism. We are reaching out through every channel. We can think of.
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Mark Entrekin: That is excellent. And for us to go to your website.
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Dr. David Clarke: You have.
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Mark Entrekin: Have a quick!
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Dr. David Clarke: Yeah.
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Mark Entrekin: To help.
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Dr. David Clarke: And and chronicpain.org is going to be one that we keep even after the name change
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Dr. David Clarke: and we're we're gonna have a another one, a new one that's going to be released.
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Dr. David Clarke: probably next week, as a matter of fact. So if you go to endchronicpain.org next week you will very likely see the new website, which has a new name. I won't reveal it right here and now, but people can check it out, it's going to be completely different.
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Dr. David Clarke: And have a much easier pathway toward gathering this information.
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Mark Entrekin: The inchronicpain.org was in the introduction.
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Mark Entrekin: That one that's that's great.
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Mark Entrekin: What do you feel?
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Mark Entrekin: The is our best next step?
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Mark Entrekin: What do you like? As you mentioned the Ppda, the new title, and I'm glad you explained what plastic meant.
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Mark Entrekin: cause that was. I was confused.
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Mark Entrekin: confused. I guess we 1st talked about plastic.
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Mark Entrekin: but some of the next steps.
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Mark Entrekin: How would you, for example, advise patients who are dealing with unexplained chronic pain.
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Mark Entrekin: or maybe specialized symptoms. What
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Mark Entrekin: what would they do? Is there.
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Dr. David Clarke: Yeah, if if your viewers are wondering whether they might have this condition themselves, a great place to start is with that self assessment, quiz
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Dr. David Clarke: less than 3 min, and you can get a lot of information about whether these ideas might apply to you. And then, if it seems like they do
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Dr. David Clarke: then we've got lots of resources. We've got books, we've got courses. As I say, we have the membership program. We've got
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Dr. David Clarke: Q. And a Via zoom. We're going to do one for the public. You don't have to become a member to sit in on this one. It's going to be late November you can find the exact date on our website. So lots of resources there, we've got a practitioner directory where people can look up and find people that have taken special training in this field
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Dr. David Clarke: to be able to help people with this. And for any clinicians out there who are
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Dr. David Clarke: wondering about the scientific basis. For all this we have a bibliography of over 200
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Dr. David Clarke: published scientific references that support the recommendations that we make.
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Mark Entrekin: That's excellent. So if if I were to encounter someone
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Mark Entrekin: and I am not a doctor, I'm not a lawyer. I don't give legal advice. I don't give medical advice.
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Mark Entrekin: but if I were to see someone that maybe I thought maybe had
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Mark Entrekin: that chronic pain and
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Mark Entrekin: would sending them to your website be the best 1st step. What? What good news? What good
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Mark Entrekin: information could I give them
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Mark Entrekin: for them to do next?
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Dr. David Clarke: Yeah, a lot of times when you bring this up with people that you know, even some whom you might know well, they tend to be skeptical because we we haven't learned as a population just how ill you can get
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Dr. David Clarke: from the brain creating symptoms in the body. It's still a new concept for a lot of people. And.
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Dr. David Clarke: the idea that your brain can create these profound levels of change, profound levels of pain that can go on, for you know, decades in some people.
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Mark Entrekin: Go ahead!
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Dr. David Clarke: It's just
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Dr. David Clarke: seems implausible to people. It seems like it couldn't be possible. It seemed that way to me when I started out, that your brain could make somebody's bowels shut down to where they're only having one per month. I mean that. Just come on. Now, that can't be right.
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Dr. David Clarke: It was right, and or another patient of mine had a completely paralyzed stomach. We did the test, and this person's stomach was not moving at all, and I know that it was stress related, because once we uncovered the stress he was cured, his stomach went back to normal. So that's a barrier for a lot of people. And they think, when you're mentioning this.
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Dr. David Clarke: that you're looking at them as though they it's all in their head. And they've got some kind of neurosis, or they're mentally too weak to handle their own stress. So what I try to say to people with those concerns is just go to the website, endchronicpain.org, find the self-assessment quiz.
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Dr. David Clarke: Go through the 12 questions. It'll take you less than 3 min. And you're gonna get some perspective on this condition and on yourself from that. And you know, if you go through the 12 questions and you say, Nope, this is not me.
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Dr. David Clarke: That's okay. You've only wasted 3 min. But
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Dr. David Clarke: if you're getting a lot of yes answers to those questions, then you can take the next step and look at our resources, and
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Dr. David Clarke: all you're doing is making your medical evaluation more thorough than it was before.
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Mark Entrekin: Thank you so much. I have a couple more questions, but we are at time. I I don't know if you have another few minutes or not, but.
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Dr. David Clarke: Goodness, we ripped through that hour in no time. Mark. Yeah.
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Mark Entrekin: No, I was just looking at my clock.
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Dr. David Clarke: If you have questions, Mark, fire away, because probably your viewers do as well.
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Mark Entrekin: Okay? Well, the 1st question
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Mark Entrekin: and I'm hitting to give this comparison. But it does strike me because of some of the other work that I do
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Mark Entrekin: divorce industry in our judicial system. It's it's terrible. And the thought of
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Mark Entrekin: what we're doing and we are doing it, changing things like visitation to parenting time, because no parent is a visitor in own child's life. But just things like that. What you're talking about here, how does that impact the medical industry is is that a
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Mark Entrekin: a roadblock in in what you're sharing, that there may be other
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Mark Entrekin: solutions
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Mark Entrekin: that we're not viewing because it's not an accepted practice.
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Dr. David Clarke: You know, the insurance companies love this because all of a sudden you have patients who are getting test after test, and sometimes, you know, injection, treatments or surgery.
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Mark Entrekin: Cost.
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Dr. David Clarke: It's you know, that patient who was ill for 55 years that I mentioned had Volume 3 of his chart that was 3 inches thick. I just always go back to the number of healthcare dollars that that chart alone represents, and then you multiply that by 50 million people in the United States alone.
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Mark Entrekin: Humbly.
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Dr. David Clarke: It's it's
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Dr. David Clarke: a couple 100 billion dollars.
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Mark Entrekin: 1 billion. That's a b right.
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Dr. David Clarke: Right, and we have an approach that now has gold standard science to document its effectiveness that can alleviate these symptoms in people. If I'm an insurance company. I am absolutely wanting to pursue this.
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Dr. David Clarke: If I'm a physician, I want to pursue this, because now, all of a sudden, 40% of the people who are coming through my door, who would formerly make me want to beat my head against the wall, because I didn't know what to do for them.
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Dr. David Clarke: Now I get a very rewarding experience. I mean, sometimes the best medical instrument is a trained mind, and.
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Mark Entrekin: No so true.
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Dr. David Clarke: When I cured that patient who'd been hospitalized at the prestigious university 60 times, cured her with a 1 h conversation.
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Dr. David Clarke: You know you can't get any better than that. As a physician. It was just such a rewarding experience, and it happened almost 40 years ago, and I still remember it like it was yesterday. The patient looked up at the ceiling and said, Oh, my God! I can't believe this.
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Dr. David Clarke: because she, you know, she had a light bulb moment, realizing the the impact that her mother was having on her physical health. So yeah, when when people find out about this, and when they see that it's backed by science.
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Dr. David Clarke: They embrace it, and I think we're close to a tipping point where it's going to get adopted all over the place. There are already 2 for-profit companies that have trained a bunch of therapists to do this work that are marketing themselves as a solution to medical insurance companies, and they are both growing like gangbusters.
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Mark Entrekin: That's great to hear that that is great to hear
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Mark Entrekin: Dr. Dave. Maybe we can meet again the 1st of the year, maybe the 1st 2025
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Mark Entrekin: January, February, February, March. 1st quarter. Let's talk again. I'm I'm interested in this. Let me know what I can do to help you.
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Mark Entrekin: But do you have any closing comments before we sign off today?
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Dr. David Clarke: You know, just for your viewers that there's tremendous hope here that you know people who have been so frustrated.
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Dr. David Clarke: We had a Hollywood film director who came to our conference a couple of weeks ago to make a video for us. And the reason that she volunteered to do this is that she had had long Covid for over a year. It was so bad she was bedridden. She had to crawl.
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Mark Entrekin: Over a year.
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Dr. David Clarke: From her bed to her bathroom and back. That was all she could manage. And then she found the approach that we've been talking about here today, and she's back to her old self. And she was so grateful that she came out to our conference, and she filmed 110 people.
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Dr. David Clarke: both clinicians and scientists and patients and therapists, and who were. And she's going to put it all together into a video for us, just out of sheer gratitude for her recovery. So for your viewers who are suffering from this.
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Dr. David Clarke: there is hope.
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Mark Entrekin: So pretty much. Anyone that has been going to the doctor for an extended period of time has not found
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Mark Entrekin: a
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Mark Entrekin: an expected possible relief pattern.
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Mark Entrekin: they should go out to endchronicpain.org, and start
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Mark Entrekin: looking at another path. Is that what I'm hearing.
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Dr. David Clarke: Yes, I mean, you know, no physician can responsibly guarantee any kind of outcome. But if if you have pain or illness, and there's not been a structural abnormality or an organ disease to explain it, or if the doctor does think they've found something, but the treatment is not working as they expect.
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Dr. David Clarke: then, to get a thorough evaluation to make sure that this whole category of illness that's so common is not missed. It's absolutely worth checking out.
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Mark Entrekin: Excellent. That's such good words to hear, Dr. Clark. Thank you so much again. That's at Www. End chronicpain.org. It's been an honor, Dr. Clark, thank you so much for being here.
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Mark Entrekin: It's been so appreciative, and hope we will stay in touch everyone else. I'm mark intriken, achieving unity through the power of encouraging, inspiring, and including others personally and professionally hope to see you all again next week. Thank you. All cheers.
